[oilerlord]

Five years ago watching my last dead-battery EV in winter, being towed on a flatbed convinced me that no current electric car came close to the worry-free road-tripping experience our diesel BMW X3 provides.

Today, no EV on the road has convinced me that it's the right vehicle for that purpose.

It's still like the cartoon where Lucy tells Charlie Brown she promises not to pull the football - but always does.

Still, we keep believing like Charlie Brown does.

 

[LMichaels]

Well some do. I went in eyes wide open. One of the biggest sceptics out there. I believe (always will) Battery EVs are not the "be all end all". They're a niche product. If used in that niche they fill it beautifully. If not all you have is "sour grapes" and a lot of internet griping.

 

[jake14mw]

...

After learning about it, and the reasons why Toyota did this, it made sense to me. Similarly, (in "Toyota think"), I don't think any passenger EV is purpose-built for road tripping. They'll happily sell you a hybrid RAV4 for that.

You've embraced the joy of road tripping an EV without petrol, so I understand why you're pissed.

There's a massive difference between "purpose-built for road tripping" and capable of adequately handling the occasional long road trip. I would say that the top 80% of current EV models can adequately handle occasional long road trips. What did you learn that made a 3 DC fast charging daily limit make sense to you?

 

[FelineFreddie]

A regular road tripping vehicle?

No, not many EVs are in that category.

OTOH, the occasional 400-500 mile trip shouldn’t throw the vehicle into the practically impossible to use category, either. I’m fortunate in that I also have ICE powered vehicles, but I recognize not everyone has the luxury of multiple vehicles…

Definitely, potential EV buyers need to understand the vehicle they’re possibly getting into…

 

[LMichaels]

A regular road tripping vehicle?

No, not many EVs are in that category.

OTOH, the occasional 400-500 mile trip shouldn’t throw the vehicle into the practically impossible to use category, either. I’m fortunate in that I also have ICE powered vehicles, but I recognize not everyone has the luxury of multiple vehicles…

Definitely, potential EV buyers need to understand the vehicle they’re possibly getting into…

Exactly. There is no way I would throw all my eggs into one tech basket. I honestly don't think BEVs will be ready for that for at at least another 10-15 years. Maybe more. Hell look at where ICE vehicles were at this point in their development. BEVs haven't even reached the 1930's early 40's in equivalency

 

[oilerlord]

the occasional 400-500 mile trip shouldn’t throw the vehicle into the practically impossible to use category, either.

Is it practically impossible, or logistically possible? I'd say this depends on an individual's value of their own time.

I've seen dudes sitting in their car for over two hours while their car trickle charges to 100%. They seem quite happy to do this. They'd probably be just fine on their 5th DC charge at 7 kW, especially if it was free.

I've waited 3 hours for a ferry. Didn't like it, but that's just what it took in line waiting for the next one. Should I then go to the Ferry operator's website and bitch about it when the answer will just be something like "sorry, it is what it is"?

What if you get to the next EA charger with 5% SOC, and it's a big line forcing you to wait in line - or worse: It's offline. What if ambient temperature and other factors combine so the car takes several hours to charge? Does complaining on EA's or the car's website help? Probably not. The response will be "sorry, it is what it is"

I watched a video of a guy who decided to test his GV60's range, in winter, when it was important arrive on time for a business meeting that was 300 miles away. The chargers he arrived at were either offline or busy, forcing him (not so patiently) to wait in line.

It didn't end well, and all the guy did at the end of the video was bitch about how bad the car and charging network was. He (of course) took no responsibility whatsoever for making bad decisions. The car sucked, the charger sucked, Genesis sucked for making a terrible car and lying to him about it's range. Not his fault

This is why I question people (especially those educated and experienced in all things EV) who know going in that road tripping is a one of their requirements - why they chose to buy an EV (any EV). There are several factors that conspire against an EV driver that can and does bring high anxiety into what would normally be a pleasurable trip on gasoline.

A friend (and huge Tesla fan) of mine drives a Model S and bought a Model Y for his wife. They frequently visit their grandkid in a city that's 200 miles away. Yes, they could easily sit at a Supercharger - but turns out his wife values their time with their grandkid more. They sold it and bought a Lexus RX.

 

[oilerlord]

What did you learn that made a 3 DC fast charging daily limit make sense to you?

In the design of the BZ4X why Toyota did this: To extend the life of the battery.

Toyota has a legendary reputation for long-term reliability, across all of their product lineup.

Thus, it made sense to me.

 

[jake14mw]

In the design of the BZ4X why Toyota did this: To extend the life of the battery.

Toyota has a legendary reputation for long-term reliability, across all of their product lineup.

Thus, it made sense to me.

See, this is where we disagree. The two biggest EV players like Tesla and Hyundai/Kia have vehicles that charge for long periods of time at 150-200 kw and have no daily charging limits. The other bz4x lessor competitors like Mach e, ID.4, and Equinox are slower chargers, but still charge much faster than bz4x. They have no daily charging limits. Some of those cars use CATL and Panasonic batteries. None of these vehicles have shown significant battery degredation.

CATL is one of the largest EV battery manufacturers in the world. No other automaker has a hard limit on charging using their batteries. Toyota chose to cheap out on the design of the bz4x. Their cooling system is inferior to the competition. I believe that when they started testing the bz4x, they figured out that their design could not handle even slow 30-80 kw charging rates over extended periods, and had to set a limit to prevent battery damage.

If you want to argue that Toyota has looked at other automakers designs and said, "hey, we are Toyota, we think that those other automakers designs will yield battery life that is not up to our standards, we want to make sure our batteries last longer and are more reliable", that's fine. Toyota IS known for quality and reliability. But when the result is an EV that charges slower than the competition AND has to set a hard limit for charging, that's a joke. One or the other would have been poor, but explainable as a sacrifice for long term reliability. Not both.

 

[oilerlord]

@jake14mw asked:

"What did you learn that made a 3 DC fast charging daily limit make sense to you?

I answered both questions.

Doesn't mean that we have to agree or disagree with Toyota's decision to engineer a 3 DCFC limit...

Only that it made sense to me why they did it.

 

[janedoe997]

I believe that the perception that Tesla Superchargers are more reliable comes down to the fact that 1: they maintain them well; 2: they only have to support a very limited number of vehicles, and they control the firmware of both the DCFC and the vehicles.

The second point is the one that will be critical. I suspect that Tesla is seeing how complex this is (multiple vendors and their teams working with Tesla), and how unsatisfied non-Tesla owners will be if the experience isn’t flawless. That won’t be a good look for Musk.

This is very similar to the non-Tesla DCFC issues, but non-Tesla is further complicated by the fact that the hardware and firmware comes from a third party, not the DCFC station operator.

We’re a long way from seamless DCFC across all vehicle makes.

I worry how long it will eventually take Toyota and Subaru to actually roll out firmware changes (and working firmware) to all the early adopters. And it’s probably at Toyota and Subaru’s expense for the 3-4 hours of dealer time to update each car. Yeah, I don’t actually believe they are going to do it, nor do I believe that they are going to give us all free adapters.

I would have preferred that they convert everyone in NA to CCS Combo 2/IEC Type 2, which is what is used in the EU, and for which most of the bugs have already been worked out and interoperability seems good.

Expect decent interoperability for DCFC in North America in about another five years, and poor support for early adopter vehicles like ours.

Anything better than that and we were just lucky.

It has less to do with the different number of cars, but the quality of the equipment they use. I've had a EvGo charger two blocks away from me down for about 7 out of the 9 months. On the other hand, a tesla charger is rarely down, and even if its down, they typically build out a minium of 8 super chargers usually 20 at a site, so 19/20 operational is much better than 1/2 EvGo stations. Additionally their down time is much shorter because they have access to replacement parts and don't rely on untested suppliers for their charging equipment. All that said, you'll rarely see a tesla station with more than 1-2 chargers down at a given time, and you'll rarely see a line except in NYC and LA where before you even get to the station you can either reserve a spot, or you can be automatically be rerouted to a more convient location. I can't tell you the number of times i've gotten to an EA or EVGo station and had less than 50% functioning stalls and crazy lines because they typically only build out a 4 stall stations. I routinely only charge at magic dock Tesla stations when driving through NJ and PA even tho EvGo is free for me because i know i won't have a wait, and i know it'll be hassle free with no broken equipment.

 

[JSM]

See, this is where we disagree. The two biggest EV players like Tesla and Hyundai/Kia have vehicles that charge for long periods of time at 150-200 kw and have no daily charging limits. The other bz4x lessor competitors like Mach e, ID.4, and Equinox are slower chargers, but still charge much faster than bz4x. They have no daily charging limits. Some of those cars use CATL and Panasonic batteries. None of these vehicles have shown significant battery degredation. CATL is one of the largest EV battery manufacturers in the world. No other automaker has a hard limit on charging using their batteries. Toyota chose to cheap out on the design of the bz4x. Their cooling system is inferior to the competition. I believe that when they started testing the bz4x, they figured out that their design could not handle even slow 30-80 kw charging rates over extended periods, and had to set a limit to prevent battery damage. If you want to argue that Toyota has looked at other automakers designs and said, "hey, we are Toyota, we think that those other automakers designs will yield battery life that is not up to our standards, we want to make sure our batteries last longer and are more reliable", that's fine. Toyota IS known for quality and reliability. But when the result is an EV that charges slower than the competition AND has to set a hard limit for charging, that's a joke. One or the other would have been poor, but explainable as a sacrifice for long term reliability. Not both.

Before the bz4x was introduced in 2023, there was already a mountain of evidence that EV batteries could be safely DC Fast Charged more than 3 times a day AND several different sets of automotive thermal systems for managing the stress on these EV batteries.

 

[oilerlord]

It has less to do with the different number of cars, but the quality of the equipment they use...I can't tell you the number of times i've gotten to an EA or EVGo station and had less than 50% functioning stalls and crazy lines because they typically only build out a 4 stall stations. I routinely only charge at magic dock Tesla stations when driving through NJ and PA even tho EvGo is free for me because i know i won't have a wait, and i know it'll be hassle free with no broken equipment.

This^ is one of the first no BS assessments for the current state of the overall CCS network I've read here.

I think our own abuse is a big factor why DCFC sites can have "crazy lines" and offline chargers. Again, I waited for an hour behind a dude in a Tesla at my favorite free 50 kW DCFC site charge to 94% (Why should he pay $0.40 per kWh on a Supercharger when this one is free?). Courtesy aside, this site is easily in use 95+ percent of the time, 24/7, 365 so how long before it breaks down? I can arrive at 4AM, someone will be plugged in.

Because it's free.

We can blame our cars and the charging network for a bad "free" experience that apparently we're all entitled to...

I find it interesting the EV community of CCS owners don't look internally at why these sites can have crazy lines and offline chargers. We just expect someone else's money to fix problems our own abuse is causing.

 

[JSM]

Tom at State of Charge blames the manufacturers...

 

[JSM]

This^ is one of the first no BS assessments for the current state of the overall CCS network I've read here.

I think our own abuse is a big factor why DCFC sites can have "crazy lines" and offline chargers. Again, I waited for an hour behind a dude in a Tesla at my favorite free 50 kW DCFC site charge to 94% (Why should he pay $0.40 per kWh on a Supercharger when this one is free?). Courtesy aside, this site is easily in use 95+ percent of the time, 24/7, 365 so how long before it breaks down? I can arrive at 4AM, someone will be plugged in.

Because it's free.

We can blame our cars and the charging network for a bad "free" experience that apparently we're all entitled to...

I find it interesting the EV community of CCS owners don't look internally at why these sites can have crazy lines and offline chargers. We just expect someone else's money to fix problems our own abuse is causing.

Tom at State of Charge blames the manufacturers...

 

[FelineFreddie]

I think Tom is spot-on in his assessment.

Traditional ICE vehicle Manufacturers trying to force EVs to fit into the ICE vehicle operations “model” in sales, service and operation has been a major fault I’ve complained about for years.

 

[oilerlord]

Tom at State of Charge blames the manufacturers..

Of course he does. I've yet to see a YouTube reviewer that doesn't blame either the car or the charger for bad experiences.

But not one blames the abuse.

Everyone seems to expect and demand a zero-cost working charger, but don't quite get that it's someone else's money that's paying to not only keep these chargers online, but serviced to keep them that way. Tesla's Supercharger network is widely known to be both available, and online.

That's because those who use it, pay to keep it that way.

 

[FelineFreddie]

Yes, I think we all understand power isn’t free and that someone ultimately has to pay for it.

But surely the manufacturers aren’t free of blame as they promise free charging and use that tactic to move product. At some point, the seller making the promise has to be held to account.

No one is suggesting punishment for the manufacturers, only that they stop promising “pie in the sky” scenarios.

From the video, it would appear Ford finally is beginning to understand the costs of short-term promises that deviate from the reality of life.

 

[oilerlord]

But surely the manufacturers aren’t free of blame as they promise free charging and use that tactic to move product. At some point, the seller making the promise has to be held to account.

See, and I disagree. They are indeed handing out free charging cards, and contractually it is free, and from what I've red this far, people here have received free charging.

But that's where it ends. It's up to the user of this free card to find a working charger in their area, and if they have to wait hours to use it, that's the price of free. Why would that be the car manufacturer's problem?

I'm writing this as my car is currently at 62% SOC, charging at 25kW on a 50kW free charger.

I waited over an hour for the jerk in the Tesla in front of me to charge to 90%.

That's the price of free.

 

[jake14mw]

There are limited DC fast chargers. There are people who NEED them to get where they are going, and there are people who don't need them but choose to use them. The people that need them are ones that are traveling away from home, or who can't charge at home. The ones that don't need them are mostly those with free charging that can charge at home, but charge there because it's free. If there was an EVGo DCFC that was more conveniently located to me (that actually worked),I would take advantage of free electricity too.

One of the biggest problems people cite for lack of EV adoption is the lack of working public charging. A great contributer to this is people who would otherwise charge at home clogging DCFCs because they have free charging. A good friend of mine does this with his Hyundai. If free charging plans didn't exist, the public charging experience would improve immediately. That would help EV adoption. Auto manufacturers know this. Much fewer EVs come with free charging today than 1-2 years ago. The Hyundai Ioniq 5 still comes with 2 years free at EA. Because there is a new EA station that's convenient to me, that weighs in my buying decision. I have high electricity rates, so that free charging is worth about $50/month to me. So, I'm sure having a free charging plan sells a few more EVs. I would love to know how much Hyundai pays EA for each car sold. I just wish all automakers would agree to not give free unlimited charging for long periods. That would be the best for the greater EV good.

To me, free charging = BAD.

 

[JSM]

Not sure if right thread topic of actual % state of charge, my car scanner reads 94.9% when the bz4x states 100% state of charge. If someone on here knows it's a different thread please let me know.