[JSM]

I read somewhere there is only 64 kWh usable in this 72.8 kWh battery. If it is 64 kWh I just subtracted 10% (or 6.4 kWh) in the calculation. Either this assumption was wrong or my math is.

The 71 vs 64 number is coming from a Norwegian car guide review, Toyota bZ4X Pure EV long-term test: what's the real-world range of Toyota's electric SUV?. I haven't seen same on any Toyota publication. That number is probably achieved using stnd practice calculations for EV batteries.

 

[JSM]

This article, https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/bz4x, claims the 2024 models has a 63.4-kWh battery pack in the single-motor version and a 65.5-kWh pack in the dual-motor model.

 

[n6nl]

“I guess what I'm looking for is how many kWh's the usable capacity is. 95.6% implies that the usable capacity of the 72.8 kWh battery is 69.6 kWh's.”

That doesn’t account (69.6) for the bottom buffer.

Again, the 0% displayed SoC is not 0% actual (OBD II) SoC.

But if it was, and if @jmwk recorded 8.6% OBD II at 0% displayed SoC, and ignoring that there is some usable below 0% indicated SoC, then 100-95.6 = 4.4, add the 8.6 to get 13.0, subtract that from 100.0 to get 87% and multiply by the gross capacity of the CATL pack to get 63.3 kWh.

Now the next problem is, did @jmwk record his reading with the original firmware, where there was more range below the 0% indicated SoC than there is now (the 0% indicated SoC spot was “moved”)? Probably his reading was recent enough.

No one wants to be the one who drives their Solterra until it stops. I get that. Hassle to do it and recover from it, unless you can circle the EVSE until it stops and push it (good luck!) to the EVSE or you have your own flatbed tow truck.

64 kWh usable is a reasonable estimate for most purposes, since no one wants to drive their car to empty while operating it in a way that would expect to use that last usable bit of charge.

Use 64 kWh (net) and you are probably close.

 

[JSM]

How much is available beyond zero on the 2024 hasn't really been revealed anywhere I've seen. Kyle at Out of Spec did exactly what you're suggesting with a 2023 model,

 

[jmwk]

“I guess what I'm looking for is how many kWh's the usable capacity is. 95.6% implies that the usable capacity of the 72.8 kWh battery is 69.6 kWh's.”

That doesn’t account (69.6) for the bottom buffer.

Again, the 0% displayed SoC is not 0% actual (OBD II) SoC.

But if it was, and if @jmwk recorded 8.6% OBD II at 0% displayed SoC, and ignoring that there is some usable below 0% indicated SoC, then 100-95.6 = 4.4, add the 8.6 to get 13.0, subtract that from 100.0 to get 87% and multiply by the gross capacity of the CATL pack to get 63.3 kWh.

Now the next problem is, did @jmwk record his reading with the original firmware, where there was more range below the 0% indicated SoC than there is now (the 0% indicated SoC spot was “moved”)? Probably his reading was recent enough.

No one wants to be the one who drives their Solterra until it stops. I get that. Hassle to do it and recover from it, unless you can circle the EVSE until it stops and push it (good luck!) to the EVSE or you have your own flatbed tow truck.

64 kWh usable is a reasonable estimate for most purposes, since no one wants to drive their car to empty while operating it in a way that would expect to use that last usable bit of charge.

Use 64 kWh (net) and you are probably close.

Thanks. My numbers are post-update with the new firmware, though the relationship between %SoC displayed in the ODB scanner and dash vs ODB and in the pre-update app didn't change.

For the geeks, I found a really tight fit to this equation, using roughly a hundred data points both before and after the update (CATL):

dash%=odb%*1.151-0.094

 

[oilerlord]

64 kWh usable is a reasonable estimate for most purposes, since no one wants to drive their car to empty...

I'm on my second strike in that regard 🤣

A couple of times driving around with my wife in the B250e and it's 28 kWh battery in winter. -25C and I say "Don't worry, the car's got plenty of range to make it back". Nope.

Once was taking an Uber and deserting the car about six blocks from our house, the second was barely making it to an L2 with the heater off and clearing frosted windows to see where we were going. It took a lot of convincing there would not be a third time, even with a car that has three times the range.

 

[n6nl]

Thanks. My numbers are post-update with the new firmware, though the relationship between %SoC displayed in the ODB scanner and dash vs ODB and in the pre-update app didn't change.

It’s possible that they didn’t make the supposed change to the US model to “open up” a bit more useful range by moving that 0% SoC/0 Miles remaining closer to the actual lower SoC buffer. That change seems to be confirmed by testing in EU, but no one has reported (here or on Solterra Forum) that they confirmed it in the US.

Having the data points not move, after the update (Sep 2023 timeframe, IIRC), leads me to believe that the US still has the larger ”below zero” usable reserve it always had.

Remember that the EPA test takes the vehicle to the “won’t move” point to get the number published.

As to the 30 May 2023 Out Of Spec video, yeah, they do great work, but that was before the firmware update, so it isn’t definitive, but might still be applicable if Toyota USA didn’t move the zero range Guess-o-Meter point.

 

[oilerlord]

Same brain about Kyle's video as I was about to post it too It was one of the real-world informative videos about the BZ that I watched before buying the car.

He was surprised at how much reserve was left at 0% as indicated on the dash. I think that's smart on Toyota's part as gives people ample warning to make it back, but being conservative like this is also obvious fodder for "Don't buy this car!!" videos too. I still shake my head at how many YT "expert" reviewers put soo much trust in Guess-O-Meters.

 

[JSM]

I don't really care how much there is past 0; give it to me before that so I can use it on the road trip! That's what the other car makers do. I'd like to have more juice above 0 PLEASE!! AND NO THROTTLING after 3 DC fast charges in 1 day.

 

[n6nl]

What does it matter where an arbitrary zero mark is, as long as you know what actual SoC% is usable below zero before the vehicle starts to slow. If I was sure it was 5% (example), I would be pretty comfortable knowing that when I reached zero indicated % and miles on the Guess-o-Meter, I would still have 9 or so miles of 65 MPH range before it slowed (at 3 mi/kWh) or a bit more if I slowed.

But for the 2023 AWD crowd with CATL, that throttle point is at 2x of a 10-80% DCFC (cumulative) in a 24 hour period. Far worse.

With a 100% starting L1/L2 charge, and 3x per day of DCFC (3x70% = 210% cumulative), that 310% (100% + 210%) of a 64kWh (net figures, not gross) or 198.4 kWh or (with AWD at 65 MPH) at 3.0 mi/kWh, 595.2 miles.

That’s a pretty decent day of driving. 9.2 hours of driving and (with warm battery only), if you are lucky, 3x35 minutes of charging (yeah, good luck on this one). That’s about 11 hours. That’s a do-able day (done plenty of those in non-EVs).

A 2024 AWD CATL is just barely adequate for road tripping in warm weather. A 2023, nope. So, I will at least give them a thumbs-up on fixing the worst of the 2023 charging issues to just barely acceptable.

Sucks to be an early adopter (I am one), especially when then 2x limit for 2023 was not acknowledged or known until after most of the early adopters (the ones who pre-ordered their cars) had already taken delivery. And it appears that some firmware changes which may have been made in the EU were possibly not made in NA.

 

[oilerlord]

Sucks to be an early adopter (I am one), especially when then 2x limit for 2023 was not acknowledged or known until after most of the early adopters (the ones who pre-ordered their cars) had already taken delivery.

See, and I thought being an "early adopter" was generally considered someone who 14 years ago took the leap into Electric Vehicles and bought a Nissan Leaf or perhaps a Ford Focus Electric. I think a better term for buying the first model year of the BZ4X / Solterra (or any all-new platform) is "beta tester".

I always tell myself "Don't buy the first model year" because it might take a year or two for bugs to be worked out.

My last beta test was a 2019 Lexus UX250h. Here I am beta testing a 2023 BZ4X.

 

[JSM]

What does it matter where an arbitrary zero mark is, as long as you know what actual SoC% is usable below zero before the vehicle starts to slow. If I was sure it was 5% (example), I would be pretty comfortable knowing that when I reached zero indicated % and miles on the Guess-o-Meter, I would still have 9 or so miles of 65 MPH range before it slowed (at 3 mi/kWh) or a bit more if I slowed.

But for the 2023 AWD crowd with CATL, that throttle point is at 2x of a 10-80% DCFC (cumulative) in a 24 hour period. Far worse.

With a 100% starting L1/L2 charge, and 3x per day of DCFC (3x70% = 210% cumulative), that 310% (100% + 210%) of a 64kWh (net figures, not gross) or 198.4 kWh or (with AWD at 65 MPH) at 3.0 mi/kWh, 595.2 miles.

That’s a pretty decent day of driving. 9.2 hours of driving and (with warm battery only), if you are lucky, 3x35 minutes of charging (yeah, good luck on this one). That’s about 11 hours. That’s a do-able day (done plenty of those in non-EVs).

A 2024 AWD CATL is just barely adequate for road tripping in warm weather. A 2023, nope. So, I will at least give them a thumbs-up on fixing the worst of the 2023 charging issues to just barely acceptable.

Sucks to be an early adopter (I am one), especially when then 2x limit for 2023 was not acknowledged or known until after most of the early adopters (the ones who pre-ordered their cars) had already taken delivery. And it appears that some firmware changes which may have been made in the EU were possibly not made in NA.

Here's where I disagree with the math, and it's based on my 425 mile one way trip last month, averaging 90 deg ambient temp, leaving each way with full charge. The issue of range, compounded by inferior charging infrastructure, made for an almost 13 hour trip! Imagine it's your 2nd charging stop, and the only available charger in the area is a 50 kW charger, and the 90 deg ambient temp is translating into 120 deg at the inverter? How about stop #3, where you get to sit and wait at a 4 cable EVGo station, 2 @ 150 kW, and 2 @ 100 kW, same temps mentioned! Yes, it happened!

 

[JSM]

Here's where I disagree with the math, and it's based on my 425 mile one way trip last month, averaging 90 deg ambient temp, leaving each way with full charge. The issue of range, compounded by inferior charging infrastructure, made for an almost 13 hour trip! Imagine it's your 2nd charging stop, and the only available charger in the area is a 50 kW charger, and the 90 deg ambient temp is translating into 120 deg at the inverter? How about stop #3, where you get to sit and wait at a 4 cable EVGo station, 2 @ 150 kW, and 2 @ 100 kW, same temps mentioned! Yes, it happened!

FYI, I looked back at my ABRP notes, and noted that it was forecasting a (3) charge, 10 hour trip each way, which didn't happen at all either down or back. I would say that once you get off the interstate, have to use a US highway, or worse, a state highway then all bets are off, as you start seeing more of the slower chargers. And really warm charging temps might be just as bad as cold temps for ev charging in a vehicle with older thermal management.

 

[oilerlord]

The math checks out, it's the variables that put a wrench in it.

From what I've been reading, charging stops are kind of like snowflakes. No two are the same.

When Tesla's network opens up for us, maybe some of your issues may be somewhat mitigated. I read one person saying his AWD car actually peak at 100 kW on a Tesla Magic dock.

Other than those holding out for free charging on existing EA incentive offers...when Supercharging becomes available, the entire legacy CCS charging network will likely become far worse in terms of User Experience that it is today.

 

[JSM]

The math checks out, it's the variables that put a wrench in it.

From what I've been reading, charging stops are kind of like snowflakes. No two are the same.

View attachment 2272

When Tesla's network opens up for us, maybe some of your issues may be somewhat mitigated. I read one person saying his AWD car actually peak at 100 kW on a Tesla Magic dock.

Other than those holding out for free charging on existing EA incentive offers...when Supercharging becomes available, the entire legacy CCS charging network will likely become far worse in terms of User Experience that it is today.

It'll get better when Toyota produces an EV with faster charging ability and larger battery. 3 DC fast charges a day limit isn't good enough. Check out how many DC Fast charges this YouTuber is planning for a 2 day 1200 mile trip.

And how short each stop is. He's not really going to use ABRP along the way, the car's system will do it for him.

 

[oilerlord]

Like the road-trip planning guy in the video concluded he always wanted a Tesla, and given how much road tripping matters to you, I'm sorry you didn't buy (or lease) one too.

I say this with 100% compassion and 0% snark.

 

[JSM]

Like the road-trip planning guy in the video concluded he always wanted a Tesla, and given how much road tripping matters to you, I'm sorry you didn't buy (or lease) one too. I say this with 100% compassion and 0% snark.

The one thing I didn't see coming was the 3 DC Fast charging daily limit.

 

[LMichaels]

If you get a realistic 150 miles per fast charge, X3 is 450 miles + if you started out at 100% and realistically had say 190 miles, cripes that is WAY more driving than I want to do in one day. That is FO SHO

 

[JSM]

Like the road-trip planning guy in the video concluded he always wanted a Tesla, and given how much road tripping matters to you, I'm sorry you didn't buy (or lease) one too.

I say this with 100% compassion and 0% snark.

Not just Tesla's...

...

 

[oilerlord]

The one thing I didn't see coming was the 3 DC Fast charging daily limit.

That's fair...and very few did.

Before buying the car I had no knowledge of this either - and that's after watching at least a couple dozen BZ reviews.

After learning about it, and the reasons why Toyota did this, it made sense to me. Similarly, (in "Toyota think"), I don't think any passenger EV is purpose-built for road tripping. They'll happily sell you a hybrid RAV4 for that.

You've embraced the joy of road tripping an EV without petrol, so I understand why you're pissed.