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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Why did you decide to go with a Toyota electric vehicle over something from Tesla? I know there are many reasons why you shouldn't buy a Tesla but was wondering exactly what negatives about them made you go with Toyota.

To start, build quality.
Tesla's have a lot of build quality issues and fortunately it is one area Toyota excels at!
 

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Well I haven't decided on Toyota/Subaru....yet. First, they have to start production and get the pipeline full. I think this will take them at least another 18 months. By that time, there will be lots more competition to choose from.

It will also take time before we get clear about tax credits, interest rates, incentives, lease deals etc. And to see how Toyota and the other legacy car companies handle selling EVs alongside competing ICE products in the same showroom.
 

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Tesla's long term reliability is still not proven. Yes, the Model S has been around for a while but one model isn't enough to determine reliability of a brand beyond 10 years. Toyota has proven their hybrid vehicles can run at very low cost reliably well beyond this time frame. Toyota takes a conservative approach to ensure their vehicles maintain long term reliability. It seems Tesla pushes out as much as they can and don't share the same approach. If I am going to spend $40,000, it will definitely be on a brand that focuses on longevity rather than sales numbers.
 

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Tesla's build quality is a big one for me. I don't want to worry about parts falling off my car or pieces installed incorrectly or god forbid a software issue. Also, to be quite frank Tesla fans drive me crazy sometimes where they almost worship Tesla like a cult. Yes they have great range but the competition is catching up to them finally on that.

With Toyota I know what I'm getting and that's a car that's going to be well put together and not rushed.
 

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It's the attitude: overhype / underdeliver (Tesla) instead of under promise / overdeliver (Toyota).

Cult of Elon followers are not helping either.
 

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It's the attitude: overhype / underdeliver (Tesla) instead of under promise / overdeliver (Toyota).

Cult of Elon followers are not helping either.
Yeah I get why their fans love Tesla so much but there's some that take things way too far. The ones where as soon as you criticize Musk or Tesla you get a giant barrage of insults that have nothing to do with what you said.
 

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Over the past year, I've tried to like Tesla more and more. Realistically, their charging network combined with their onboard route planning is their greatest automotive achievement in my opinion.

As a current EV owner, my biggest fears are usually realized about 50% of the time, where I've tried to charge up on the go, only to arrive at a location with a single charging station, and it's either in use or out of service.

Tesla's placement of charging stations is smart, the fact that there's usually 12-24 total chargers per location is beyond anything I've seen with other charging types, and the fact that the car will only charge what's needed to get you to the next station is a nice time and battery saver.

However, I can't ignore the quality issues. Plus, I'd rather time and money be spent towards reliability (cough Toyota) instead of stupid useless features, like seats sensors that trigger farts (funny, but stupid), or the Karen features (e.g. oh no I can't find my car in a parking lot, please come find me instead).
 

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I see where Tesla and Musk weren't invited to the Biden event the other day. But this won't slow up Tesla for a second. In Fact, for years now they have found an alternate way to solve problems. They made their mistakes and learned from them.

I dislike Musk less than I used to. His way of running the company has allowed them to attract publicity, without spending anything on advertising. And he does seem to keep the whole thing together.
 

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I should add a side note -- I like Musk, and I believe in what he's doing and what he's done. And like all good car companies that aim to survive, they will get better. But at this particular point in time, I put more faith in Toyota's reputation for build quality, total cost of ownership and reliability.
 

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#1. At this time there is no BEV that meets all of our driving needs. We'd have to own, or rent, an additional vehicle for road trips and hauling stuff, which we are trying to avoid.
#2. The Osbourne effect: who knows what the resale value of any BEV will be in 5 years? I don't.
#3. The testimonies of Tesla owners that I have seen on the Internet were IMO too subjective, focusing on the benefits while deemphasizing the negatives.
#4A. We live in a suburban home with 240VAC, 100 amp service, but we might be moving to a condo in the next few years .... if we are blessed with a BEV at that time, it would have an undue influence on our choices for a new home.
#4B. We do have power outages once in a while, which is when our ICE car could serve as an emergency power source, while a Tesla might be incapacitated and become a burden instead of help.
#5. The cost of insurance and repairs, I am hearing, is much higher than most people would imagine.
#6. The nearest Tesla service center is 1 hour (more like 1.5 hours in peak traffic) and 3 counties away.
#7. As we are discovering, one never really 100% "owns" a Tesla in the same way we own let's say one would own a Toyota or Ford. Mothership Tesla, IMO, exercises too much OTA control over what should be "my car" after I buy it. Yes, I know it's all for optimizing my ownership experience :)
 

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#1. At this time there is no BEV that meets all of our driving needs. We'd have to own, or rent, an additional vehicle for road trips and hauling stuff, which we are trying to avoid.
#2. The Osbourne effect: who knows what the resale value of any BEV will be in 5 years? I don't.
#3. The testimonies of Tesla owners that I have seen on the Internet were IMO too subjective, focusing on the benefits while deemphasizing the negatives.
#4A. We live in a suburban home with 240VAC, 100 amp service, but we might be moving to a condo in the next few years .... if we are blessed with a BEV at that time, it would have an undue influence on our choices for a new home.
#4B. We do have power outages once in a while, which is when our ICE car could serve as an emergency power source, while a Tesla might be incapacitated and become a burden instead of help.
#5. The cost of insurance and repairs, I am hearing, is much higher than most people would imagine.
#6. The nearest Tesla service center is 1 hour (more like 1.5 hours in peak traffic) and 3 counties away.
#7. As we are discovering, one never really 100% "owns" a Tesla in the same way we own let's say one would own a Toyota or Ford. Mothership Tesla, IMO, exercises too much OTA control over what should be "my car" after I buy it. Yes, I know it's all for optimizing my ownership experience :)
Welcome to the forum @Dimitrij! What stands out to your the most about the bZ compared to a Tesla? Have you considered other BEVs or is the bZ the one?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
#1. At this time there is no BEV that meets all of our driving needs. We'd have to own, or rent, an additional vehicle for road trips and hauling stuff, which we are trying to avoid.
#2. The Osbourne effect: who knows what the resale value of any BEV will be in 5 years? I don't.
#3. The testimonies of Tesla owners that I have seen on the Internet were IMO too subjective, focusing on the benefits while deemphasizing the negatives.
#4A. We live in a suburban home with 240VAC, 100 amp service, but we might be moving to a condo in the next few years .... if we are blessed with a BEV at that time, it would have an undue influence on our choices for a new home.
#4B. We do have power outages once in a while, which is when our ICE car could serve as an emergency power source, while a Tesla might be incapacitated and become a burden instead of help.
#5. The cost of insurance and repairs, I am hearing, is much higher than most people would imagine.
#6. The nearest Tesla service center is 1 hour (more like 1.5 hours in peak traffic) and 3 counties away.
#7. As we are discovering, one never really 100% "owns" a Tesla in the same way we own let's say one would own a Toyota or Ford. Mothership Tesla, IMO, exercises too much OTA control over what should be "my car" after I buy it. Yes, I know it's all for optimizing my ownership experience :)
About #5, I read that cost of ownership for an EV can be as much as 40% cheaper than an ICE car. Did you get high quotes from insurance companies on EVs you were interested in?
BTW, welcome to the club!
 

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#1. At this time there is no BEV that meets all of our driving needs. We'd have to own, or rent, an additional vehicle for road trips and hauling stuff, which we are trying to avoid.
#2. The Osbourne effect: who knows what the resale value of any BEV will be in 5 years? I don't.
#3. The testimonies of Tesla owners that I have seen on the Internet were IMO too subjective, focusing on the benefits while deemphasizing the negatives.
#4A. We live in a suburban home with 240VAC, 100 amp service, but we might be moving to a condo in the next few years .... if we are blessed with a BEV at that time, it would have an undue influence on our choices for a new home.
#4B. We do have power outages once in a while, which is when our ICE car could serve as an emergency power source, while a Tesla might be incapacitated and become a burden instead of help.
#5. The cost of insurance and repairs, I am hearing, is much higher than most people would imagine.
#6. The nearest Tesla service center is 1 hour (more like 1.5 hours in peak traffic) and 3 counties away.
#7. As we are discovering, one never really 100% "owns" a Tesla in the same way we own let's say one would own a Toyota or Ford. Mothership Tesla, IMO, exercises too much OTA control over what should be "my car" after I buy it. Yes, I know it's all for optimizing my ownership experience :)
Some random thoughts:

I'd be a lot more worried about the resale value of an ICEV in five years, than of a BEV. I think the govt plans being put forth by Biden and discussed in Congress will pretty much be the death of all simple ICEVs, with hybrids being the new base models. They may look less attractive when they have to compete directly against BEVs. I may not be able to give away my non-hybrid in 5 years.

In 5 years, we will have a wider experience base with BEVs and many more people will see how they can live with one. I would expect batteries to improve in that time, with faster charging times at the many stations that the govt will subsidize.

If there's a power failure I can't charge my BEV, but I cannot pump gas either. Ford says their EV Lightning ($90K) will run a house for three days. If I want a real backup it would bottom line be better and cheaper to get my own NG generator, or do the Powerwall thing.

I thought almost all new cars have event recorders or they are in touch wit hthe mothership somehow (Starlink, Onstar, etc). At least from what i have seen the Tesla OTA actually works (unlike some other brands) to download and install useful software that improves the ride.
 

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Welcome to the forum @Dimitrij! What stands out to your the most about the bZ compared to a Tesla? Have you considered other BEVs or is the bZ the one?
What stands out? the brand :)

The BZ4x model, promised for 2022, is too small to be my only car. Also, I shouldn't need a new car until 2025. But I'll be following the developments in the BZ family in the next few years.

Yeah I get why their fans love Tesla so much but there's some that take things way too far. The ones where as soon as you criticize Musk or Tesla you get a giant barrage of insults that have nothing to do with what you said.
To be fair, this phenomenon is not endemic to Tesla forums.

Some random thoughts:

I'd be a lot more worried about the resale value of an ICEV in five years, than of a BEV. I think the govt plans being put forth by Biden and discussed in Congress will pretty much be the death of all simple ICEVs, with hybrids being the new base models. They may look less attractive when they have to compete directly against BEVs. I may not be able to give away my non-hybrid in 5 years.

In 5 years, we will have a wider experience base with BEVs and many more people will see how they can live with one. I would expect batteries to improve in that time, with faster charging times at the many stations that the govt will subsidize.

If there's a power failure I can't charge my BEV, but I cannot pump gas either. Ford says their EV Lightning ($90K) will run a house for three days. If I want a real backup it would bottom line be better and cheaper to get my own NG generator, or do the Powerwall thing.

I thought almost all new cars have event recorders or they are in touch wit hthe mothership somehow (Starlink, Onstar, etc). At least from what i have seen the Tesla OTA actually works (unlike some other brands) to download and install useful software that improves the ride.
Some systematic reflections:

Extrapolating the trends of the past 25 years, I don't think the ICE-equipped vehicles will be rendered obsolete in the next 5 years. "Biden and the Congress" can make it more difficult for the drivers to buy a gasoline vehicle, but they cannot make the battery hold as much energy per kg as gasoline does.

Also, it's quite possible that the Li-ion tech will be phased out by "something else" before it had a chance to completely displace the ICE. Wouldn't be the first time in the history of technology. Picture yourself Mr. Smith spending $10K on CD's, only to find out in 10-15 years that the cool kids now stream their music, or play vinyl records :)

Outages in our area usually affect a few hundred users (smaller than a county), and if the local gas stations were to lose power, there are dozens more within a 20-mile radius. In a hypothetical situation of a state-size blackout, half the tank of gas in our Sienna can be stretched over 350 miles - twice as much as half the battery in a long range Tesla. Also, we usually store 10 gallons of gasoline (another 400 miles in our Sienna) in cans.

About #5, I read that cost of ownership for an EV can be as much as 40% cheaper than an ICE car. Did you get high quotes from insurance companies on EVs you were interested in?
BTW, welcome to the club!
At for achieving 40% or better TCO savings vs. a comparable gas-only car, this is quite possible for some owners, if all the stars align correctly for them. For example, if the owner has access to 240V service and can do 100% of their charging at home, if they never need to make longer and/or unexpected trips, if the climate is mild and the driving conditions are good, if they are able to negotiate a decent insurance rate, if the car never needs serious and/or lengthy repairs, not covered by warranty etc.

Also, I wouldn't know how to quantify the extra anxieties, inconvenience, and wasted time that EV owners are likely to experience because of their vehicle choice.

I cannot speak for every EV, and I do not have the time to write a dissertation on my first-hand experience, but yes, generally speaking the insurance is more expensive, because the insurer has to take into account higher than usual repair rates and longer repair times, for which they need to provide a rental car.
 

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It occurs to me that a good argument against buying an EV for the next several years would be that they are first generation models, and it's not a good idea to buy the first generation since it is likely to be superseded by something much better.

Leasing, if it's not too expensive, is an option. So is an Ice hybrid or plug in.

I forgot to mention that by the time other companies are into their second generation EVs, Tesla will be ahead of them, because they started much earlier. Tesla doesn't have a second generation at the moment because they don't have to have one yet, in order to keep ahead of the competition. I would expect the Tesla second generation to make a great leap forward in range, and then FSD would be the clincher feature for many people.
 
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