Charging Speed

168 said:

Yes, it is the FWD version. I have also read from one of the guy that tested the bz4x in Europe, that max charging speed is capable when battery temperature is 20 degree celsius, and even in winter. Before the recharged, I just drove the car for about 18 mins. This particular charging unit is a 150kw and highest I have seen according to plugshare for this unit is 130kw.

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This is a bit annoying... i need to see battery temperature on the INFO screen I suppose.... So, after driving hundreds of miles, i know when to plug in...

I just drove a trip over 750 miles, and my best charge on AWD started off at 74 kWh.. and then quickly dropped... My car had already cooled down, because i had to call EA to get the machine to work.... (I do have to mention though, that this had been the 4th time that day I had to DC charge (not all of the charges were FULL charges though, some just short to get me to a better location).

I thought, i knew a lot about charging, but man, I'm still learning too. I know now that Toyota is limiting DC charging to 2-per-Day... and really limiting speed after that point... although, earlier in the day on my first and 2nd, i was only getting a max of 48 kWh on charging... and that was 32 degrees and then 52 degrees Fahrenheit. I thought at least the latter would have been better... nope!

Motch6 said:

This is a bit annoying... i need to see battery temperature on the INFO screen I suppose.... So, after driving hundreds of miles, i know when to plug in...

I just drove a trip over 750 miles, and my best charge on AWD started off at 74 kWh.. and then quickly dropped... My car had already cooled down, because i had to call EA to get the machine to work.... (I do have to mention though, that this had been the 4th time that day I had to DC charge (not all of the charges were FULL charges though, some just short to get me to a better location).

I thought, i knew a lot about charging, but man, I'm still learning too. I know now that Toyota is limiting DC charging to 2-per-Day... and really limiting speed after that point... although, earlier in the day on my first and 2nd, i was only getting a max of 48 kWh on charging... and that was 32 degrees and then 52 degrees Fahrenheit. I thought at least the latter would have been better... nope!

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I've yet to hear from anyone who has attained anything even remotely close to 100 kW DC charging speeds—however briefly—with the AWD model. Knowing what we now know of the battery's true usable capacity (about 60 kWh to "0" on the gauge, and another 4-5 kWh remaining past zero), a ~10%-80% DC fast charging session would only be adding about 40 kWh to the battery.

How long should it reasonably take for a battery rated at 100 kW peak charging speeds to charge a mere 40 kWh on a 100 kW+ fast charger?

We really need to figure to what extent Toyota is simply throttling these CATL batteries (and if so, why), or if the CATL batteries are of a legitimately inferior design. Since the decision to use them only on North American AWD's seems to be a head scratcher, there has to be more to the story. It's not as if other manufacturers aren't utilizing CATL batteries as well...and charging them at much higher speeds. I wonder if there are other hardware differences between the vehicles with CATL batteries, vs. the Panasonics.

In any case, what's the point of offering an industry leading battery retention warranty if the battery's capabilities are stunted from the get-go?

Here's my most recent fast charging session, at an "EV Go" station. This is from a 50 kW DC charger with a "10/10" rating on PlugShare, with lots of happy customers according to reviews (including very recent ones).

Prior to charging, the vehicle had been driven for approximately half an hour @ 50mph with climate control on, then parked for about an hour, then driven for another 15 minutes to the charging station. Outside temperature was ~30 degrees Fahrenheit.

I'd really thought that an hour of charging would have gotten me to at least 80%—especially considering that the starting point was 40%.

Unfortunately, with only a 63% charge and the vehicle currently averaging about ~2 miles/kWh, I had to cancel my other plans for the day and head home...I likely wouldn't have been able to make it to my next destination and back (~40 miles one way).

While I'm at least happy that the charging session was free, due to the EV Go/Toyota promotional period, I am worried that once this expires, these 15.318 kWh—or about 31 miles of range added—would have cost me nearly $20.00 at 35 cents a minute. Twenty dollars worth of gas usually gets me more like 200+ miles. This is like getting <7 miles to the gallon, or paying ~$25/gallon for gasoline.

Not really sure what the problem is here.

B.Wilkins_85 said:

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Here's my most recent fast charging session, at an "EV Go" station. This is from a 50 kW DC charger with a "10/10" rating on PlugShare, with lots of happy customers according to reviews (including very recent ones).

Prior to charging, the vehicle had been driven for approximately half an hour @ 50mph with climate control on, then parked for about an hour, then driven for another 15 minutes to the charging station. Outside temperature was ~30 degrees Fahrenheit.

I'd really thought that an hour of charging would have gotten me to at least 80%—especially considering that the starting point was 40%.

Unfortunately, with only a 63% charge and the vehicle currently averaging about ~2 miles/kWh, I had to cancel my other plans for the day and head home...I likely wouldn't have been able to make it to my next destination and back (~40 miles one way).

While I'm at least happy that the charging session was free, due to the EV Go/Toyota promotional period, I am worried that once this expires, these 15.318 kWh—or about 31 miles of range added—would have cost me nearly $20.00 at 35 cents a minute. Twenty dollars worth of gas usually gets me more like 200+ miles. This is like getting <7 miles to the gallon, or paying ~$25/gallon for gasoline.

Not really sure what the problem is here.

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Similar experience the other day at an EVgo station... a BRAND new location. On a 100 kWh charging station.

I had driven about 15 minutes prior... Had sat with the HVAC on prior to that for about an hour... no movement. (kinda turned it off and on while sitting).

Went over and plugged in... had to figure it out in the first place since its not listed in the Toyota app yet... but they were offering FREE CCS charging anyway...

Plugged in at about 23% charge which is NEAR optimal!... started off at 26 kW charge rate... then it slowlly ramped up to 34 kW charge rate at 36% charge... then it slowly ramped down to 28 kW charge rate over the next half hour.

Total Charge 32.63 kWh over about 1 hour 8 mins. went from 23% to 72%... didn't even make it to 80%... Sad Day... Temp outside though was about 28 degree F. if remember correctly. So, the cold sure is affecting the charge rate.

As for your @B.Wilkins_85 charge rate... i'm betting what affected yours was that you started near 50%... the Toyota system is already throttled at that point, but shouldn't be that much.

I'm keeping a lot of screen shots and need to make a call to Corporate to find out if/when there will be a software update for the US... I know Toyota Japan has been focusing on Norway area, but we here in the US need to see this update too! I thought they were to have updated our systems while they were doing the Recall stuff, but maybe that must have been for something else... (was thinking it was for cold weather charging).

Anyway.

Indeed, I was under the impression that there was a cold weather DC charging software update that had been applied during the recall. But now I cannot recall where I'd read it; perhaps it was not for North America—or perhaps I'd initially heard of this from a less than reputable source and there in fact is no software update as such.

In any case, if starting at 40% starting SOC, I can't top up beyond ~60% in an hour, then Toyota needs to start including free motel rentals as part of the package, because this kind of charging rate is invariably going to leave people stranded, especially in consideration of the vehicle's extremely low cold weather efficiency/range.

Similarly in your case, only 32.6 kWh delivered from a 100 kW charger in over an hour...not good. Not good at all. Imagine if you'd started at or below 10%, and if you really needed the range that 80% would afford you. You'd have likely been there for two hours. Worse yet, I've seen some chargers that time-out after an hour; and others waiting for the charger are going to be very upset if our cars need multiple hours-long sessions to charge. Furtheremore, DC charging is apparently even more heavily throttled by this vehicle's software after two DC charges in one day, which is a big problem if multiple separate charging sessions might be required just to get to 80%.

And it will lead to very, very expensive "by the minute" charging sessions in the future when our free EV Go promotions expire.

Please keep us updated as to what Toyota Corporate says about this when you reach out.

Not trying to defend the vehicle or anything as I agree that toyota needs to address issues with the range/battery.
But just wanted to chime in as I’ve used this exact same charger before.
The op’s results should be taken with a grain of salt.
I think I’m from the same city, vancouver bc, as the OP and that charger appears to be a fast charger that is being “trialed” and being tested to be eventually made as “pay-per-use”.
it is currently being offered for free of use by Chevron on their Journie app. Notice op paid $0
It’s constantly being reported by users on the plugshare app as being malfunctioning or providing really weak charge.
The address for this charger is 4692 Imperial St, Burnaby, BC V5J 1B8 in case you wanted to search for it on the plugshare app and read comments about it

168—

That's an excellent charging time to 80%. It seems some of us here with the AWD model cannot get more than a few kWh in that amount of time, or even in a much greater amount of time.

I honestly don't care if my vehicle never attains the advertised peak charging rate (100 kW)—especially since many of the chargers in my area top out at 50 kW—as long as I can DC charge in a relatively reasonable amount of time. Unfortunately, as yet, my vehicle seems effectively incapable of fast charging at all...making it completely inviable for travel beyond a ~50 mile radius of my house at its current efficiency levels, and in light of the vehicle's much smaller than presumed actual net battery capacity.

I am still holding out hope, however, that these are simply charging station related issues, and will continue attempting to DC/fast charge the vehicle.

Perhaps a few others here with the CATL battery/North American AWD model can chime in as to their DC fast charging experiences to date?

I'm calculating from this an average charging speed of about 37 kW; I assume "energy used" must be factoring in 10% charging losses.

0% (as per the dash gauge) to 80% may have thus taken around ~1 hr. 15 minutes at that rate, or a bit less if 0-16% charged with a higher peak. Actual 0-80% (i.e., <empty on the gauge) would then perhaps take closer 1.5 hours.

Toyota's claim was that the North American AWD model could charge 0-80% in less than an hour (and from what point they were calculating 0 in that claim is not known), but if we assume they're sticking to their 5 kWh buffer below zero on the gauge, then to achieve that claim the average charging speed would need to be >48 kW. If, however, Toyota's claim of 0-80% in under an hour implies starting at actual 0, then one would need an actual average charging speed of >52 kW.

So even after driving for an hour (with no downtime) and in very moderate weather, his charging speed was down by as much ~30% from what one should expect based on Toyota's claims.

But, most importantly...was this a 50 kW charger, or a 100+ kW charger? If it was a 50 kW charger, then this is acceptable...perhaps.

Thanks for updating with the charger's speed.

I don't know how exactly the BZ4X's 5 kWh <0% 'buffer' factors in to the state of charge percentages shown in the app; I'm assuming 16% starting SOC means 16% above 0% on the dash. So I'm speculating that the data on your charge would work out to 62% of 60 kWh, or ~37 kWh to the battery in that hour.

I haven't yet found any posts on any forums of a BZ4X or Solterra owner with the CATL battery achieving the necessary ~50 kW average charging speed so as to attain a full 0-80% charge in under an hour. If it can only be achieved under perfect conditions, say...72 degree weather, then it's surely something we'll need to address with Toyota, as that would be a very severe shortcoming.

In chillier weather, common results from folks seem to be average charging speeds of <25 kW. Being in CA, you might see faster charging speeds fairly soon as the weather warms up; it would be interesting to see your results from this same charger again a month from now.